San Diego chip giant Qualcomm Incorporated's plans to target the connected vehicles market received a big boost earlier this month when FCC Chairman Commissioner Ajit Pai released a draft rulemaking to allocate certain segments of the 5.9GHz spectrum to Cellular Vehicle-to-everything (C-V2X) technologies. Qualcomm has been busy testing its C-V2X products for quite a while now, and the technology is set to replace the older Dedicated Short Range Communications standard once the FCC finalizes its rules.
At this front, we got a chance to sit down with Qualcomm's senior vice president of spectrum strategy and technology policy Mr. Dean Brenner at the start of this week. Mr. Brenner is responsible for heading his company's efforts to convince the FCC about the merits of moving forward with the 5.9GHz and ensuring that the access that C-V2X is granted is sufficient to advance the technology and to ensure that future connected vehicles do not interfere with WiFi or unlicensed use of the spectrum.
Prior to the ruling, the debate for the 5.9GHz spectrum has primarily been polarized between two segments – supporters of C-V2X and those of WiFi. Right now, the parties differ on the interference protection rules that WiFi U-NII-4 (5.850-5925GHz) devices would have to adhere to for protecting C-V2X users. While U-NII-4 also includes 25Mhz above the 5.9GHz spectrum, FCC's draft ruling limits WiFi use up to 5.895GHz only. WiFi devices using 125MHz below 5.850GHz are referred to as U-NII-3, and supporters of WiFi insist that given their close proximity with U-NII-4, both categories should use similar out-of-band emissions requirements.
Supporters of C-V2X, including Qualcomm, insist that U-NII-3 rules are insufficient for interference protection, with the 5G Automotive Alliance also having submitted testing results to the FCC to make this case. Our talk with Dean ranged on all these issues, Qualcomm's preparedness for C-V2X rollout and the current state of the industry.
More here: Qualcomm Set To Dominate U.S. Connected Vehicles (C-V2X) Market
To start, I'd like you to provide a brief overview of what C-V2X is and what the platform means for the future of automobiles in the United States?
Dean: "Sure, so C-V2X is an advanced wireless technology that uses cellular technologies, the same type of technology that we use to speak over cellphone but instead speaking from one connecting..one phone to another or connecting a phone to the internet, it’s connecting two cars or its connecting a car with a vehicle infrastructure like a traffic light, a stop sign stuff like that. And the virtue, why we want to do that well there are all sorts of situations where I would like to be able to you know if I’m going around a curve, if I’m driving at night, if I’m driving down an alley, I’m driving during a rainstorm I would like to alert you if we’re on the same road, I would like to alert you and Claudine [interview host] let’s say the three of us are on the same road I’d like to make sure my car tells your cars, hey, I’m here, I’m coming, I’m going to make a left turn and conversely, I would like to communications from your cars so that you know I know what you’re doing in real-time. Or when we’re at a traffic light, it would be great to know in advance when it’s going to go from red to green or from green to red. And there, so there are all sorts of situations where having this advanced wireless communications capability using the very great connectivity that we all use every day in our phones having that type of connectivity in our cars has you know profound applications to make driving much more safer. So the first focus of C-V2X technology is to improve safety on roads and highways for drivers, for the vehicles themselves and even for pedestrians."
How well is Qualcomm competitively placed to benefit from the FCC opening up the 5.9GHz spectrum for C-V2X? In other words, what significant advantages does the company bring to the table that are unique to Qualcomm?
Dean: "Sure. Thanks for that question. Thanks very much. For Qualcomm, Qualcomm is the world’s leading supplier of chips for smartphones, for tablets, for wireless devices, and we also supply chips to cars. That’s one business we have. And the second business that Qualcomm has is that we invent wireless technology, we patent our inventions and then we license the patents to many many companies all over the world who actually make equipment that uses our patented technology. So Qualcomm stands to benefit from the deployment of C-V2X technology, both because of we will be supplying chips to….that will go into cars our chips will probably be supplied to vendors who themselves put equipment around our chips and their equipment like telematics boxes would then go into a car, our chips would also go into roadside units, remember I mentioned that C-V2X technology can be used on roadway infrastructure on things like traffic lights, signs and the like. And our chips would go into that equipment also. And we would normally supply our chips to a company that would then make equipment that then would be sold to the roadway offering. And finally, Qualcomm would stand to benefit that we are one of the main developers of C-V2X technology so when C-V2X is deployed into cars, roadway infrastructure and other units so we stand to benefit there as well.
Qualcomm as a company, we are ready to go with C-V2X, with have the chips for C-V2X already developed. Those chips are already thoroughly tested and ready to go so we’re excited by the FCC ruling here. The FCC ruling right now is only a draft and so we’ll wait to see, we have some changes that we would like to see made and many other stakeholders in the FCC process likewise are seeking various changes but by and large, this is a fantastic development for Qualcomm and you know, provided that the changes are one we would like to get access to the spectrum for C-V2X absolutely as quickly as possible and not have any further waiting for A, and B we want to make sure there are sufficient protections in the FCC rules to make sure that there’s no harmful interference. So assuming those two issues are taken care of in the final FCC ruling, this will be a tremendously positive development for Qualcomm."
Assuming that Commissioner Pai opened the spectrum today, how soon will Qualcomm’s products be available to automakers?
Dean: "Yeah so just to correct one thing in your question it’s not solely up to Chairman Pai, it’s up o the commissioners on the FCC. He’s only one of five FCC commissioners and they'll be taking the vote on the draft ruling at the upcoming November 18th meeting. So I just wanted to clarify that information. We again, we have the chip for C-V2X ready to go. We’re already supplying chips that will be used in C-V2X for C-V2X in cars that will be deployed for example in China in late 2020, early 2021. So I mean there’s a lot of additional work that does have to take place before, once the spectrum is available and before the cars will actually be rolling out in the United States on a commercial basis. But none of that is really work on our and we have great partners in the ecosystem. A company like Ford is committed to deploying C-V2X in all their cars starting in 2022. And so we’re you know ready to go as soon as we get the FCC decision and with the two caveats that I mentioned earlier."
What level of enthusiasm is present in the automotive industry for Qualcomm’s C-V2X products, especially when it comes to opening up the 5.9GHz spectrum for C-V2X?
Dean: "So I think there’s tremendous enthusiasm. As I mentioned I really think that Ford is one of the major major automobile manufacturers in the United States historically and still to this day they’re very enthusiastic in their support for C-V2X and very public about the fact that they are strong supporters of C-V2X. So I mean there is tremendous enthusiasm. You know Qualcomm is, we’re always the upstart. We never accept things the way they are, we always try to advance the technology to something new. So you know there are varying auto manufacturers with different views on C-V2X as opposed to the older more primitive DSRC technology which has been around since the late 1990s but still has not been deployed. There is growing ecosystem support not just in the United States but all our the world for C-V2X and there’s no question that this FCC ruling once it comes out and again with the caveats that I mentioned are all taken care of, it’s going to generate tremendous enthusiasm in the auto industry for C-V2X."
Qualcomm’s 9150 chip was tested in Hawaii in partnership with Applied Information. Can you elaborate on the test results? Which areas performed beyond expectations? Which met expectations, and which need further improvement? More importantly, was interference with U-NII-4 and unlicensed operations also on the agenda for these tests? If so, what did the results imply?
Dean: "Sure, so I can’t comment specifically on one set of tests, but the 5G automotive Association which is you know the trade association of companies that are promoting and developing C-V2X they published results of numerous tests in C-V2X. And the tests have uniformly shown two things. First, they showed C-V2X dramatically outperforms DSRC in terms of range and reliability.
So let me explain why that is so important. So remember I said the focus of C-V2X is for safety. So having a better radio in your car translates directly into safety benefits. So for example, if my car can communicate with your cars around the curve, down an alley, at night in the area beyond, you can see my car. All of that translates directly into safety. So in the testing that we’ve done we compared C-V2X with DSRC, we’ve shown that C-V2X outperforms DSRC in terms of both range and reliability. And in all the scenarios I just mentioned having greater range, longer range, and having a greater degree of reliability translates directly into enhancing that.
In terms of the interference scenario, we presented the findings to the FCC, and based on those findings we’ve asked the FCC for certain levels of protection to make sure if WiFi is operating in the newly created U-NII-4 band then it doesn’t cause harmful interference to C-V2X. And we haven’t just said oh there might be a problem. We’ve gone back to the FCC we’ve said here’s what the testing shows and here are the levels, here are the protections that you should adopt for C-V2X, which if you adopt them our testing shows there won’t be a problem.
So that is what presented to the FCC and we’re hopeful that the final FCC decision here reflects the technical testing work that we’ve already done."
What implications do you believe will be for C-V2X’s commercial rollout should the Commission retain the 10MHz block (5895-5905MHz) of the spectrum for DSRC? More specifically, in addition to the potential impact on the commercial rollout, will this also affect the American competitive edge globally for the rollout of connected vehicles?
Dean: "Okay, thanks very much for that question. Let me explain. The FCC draft ruling does not reserve 10MHz for DSRC. The FCC ruling instead allocates all 30MHz in the upper portion of the 5.9GHz band for C-V2X it doesn’t reserve any spectrum for DSRC. That was a proposal that the FCC was considering and they asked for comment and they concluded that it would be more beneficial to allocate the 10MHz along with the other 20 for C-V2X. I should point out no one in the DSRC community actually asked for that 10Mhz. There isn’t any company that has any interest in using only 10MHz for DSRC so we don’t really need to worry about what implications would be if the FCC were to do that because in the draft ruling the FCC wouldn’t do that, instead they would allocate all 30MHz for C-V2X. We totally agree with that given not only that no one from the DSRC asked for that 10MHz and also we agree with that because we wanted that 10MHz for C-V2X and we apparently made a good enough case to convince the FCC that it was the appropriate thing to do in the public interest."
If the FCC in its rules determines that U-NII-4 devices are required to adhere to U-NII-3 OOBE (out of band emission) limits, what will Qualcomm's response be to mitigate interference concerns especially after the 5GAA’s interference test results have shown U-NII-4 interference with C-V2X? Will such a decision by the Commission cause the company to change its C-V2X products?
Dean: "So I mean I’d rather not get into hypothetical questions, but you know we have made a very convincing, very powerful case to the FCC about what the protections are that are necessary to protect C-V2X from interference from WiFi. So what we’re concentrating on between now and the FCC meeting is trying to ensure that the FCC adopts those protections.
If in fact, the FCC doesn’t adopt those protections that isn’t the end of the FCC process. So this FCC ruling is not the final word. So the at the FCC there’s a process of reconsideration so if a party looks at an FCC ruling and has information that would show the ruling is contrary to the public interest there’s a process at the FCC where you’re able to go back and provide additional information to the FCC and ask them to reconsider to change the rule. So, you know, before we get ahead of ourselves, I don’t even want to get into that process. We have little over two weeks here to try to convince the FCC to change the draft ruling to ensure greater protection for C-V2X for interference, so that’s what our focus is right now."
So the Alliance of Automotive innovation in its latest meeting with the FCC has stated the Commission is outside its scope of authority for reallocating 60% of the 5.9GHz spectrum that was originally reserved for automotive safety for unlicensed users. Now that they have made these statements, do you have any comments on this entire affair?
Dean: "Okay so first off there’s nothing new in that filing. That’s a position that that group has taken all along. Nothing at all new about that. The difference here is that they don’t want any changes being made, they would be happy if the FCC just kept the rules the way they are. Those of us on the C-V2X side would not be happy with that. Because the current FCC rules do not allow us to deploy C-V2X. The current FCC rules were adopted in 1999. No fault of anyone, in 1999 no one could have foreseen that C-V2X would be invented in the 21st century right. So instead what happened is that the FCC adopted rules that mandate that the only technology that can be deployed on the spectrum is DSRC.
Okay well, in fact since then DSRC largely has not been deployed but our problem is from C-V2X’s point of view is we need those rules to be changed to allow C-V2X to be deployed on the spectrum. So it’s not okay from our perspective for the FCC to do nothing about 5.9GHz. We need FCC action, and we need that action as soon as possible in order to allow C-V2X to be deployed and of course, the draft ruling dose that. Our quibble with the draft ruling, our issue with the draft ruling one of them is that it doesn’t allow C-V2X to be deployed on the spectrum immediately. So you know our difference is, you don’t see us making files saying the FCC lacks authority or the FCC needs to slow down because we need FCC action. We need FCC action now in order to let us using the spectrum immediately."
Okay, so as a follow-up. The primary concern that Qualcomm has with the draft ruling is the timing. Qualcomm would want the FCC to approve the spectrum for C-V2X as soon as possible. In addition to this, any other concerns that the company has with the draft ruling?
Dean: "We have two main concerns. One is what you alluded to which is that we want C-V2X to be able to use the spectrum the upper 30MHz immediately. We need to do that to bring the benefit of C-V2X to the American public absolutely as soon as possible. Instead, in the ruling, it’s unclear when exactly we would be able to use the spectrum. We would like to see the spectrum go into use for C-V2X immediately so that the regulatory issue is over. But then the second set of concerns that we have are the ones that we’ve been discussing here is ensuring there is no interference. You know, ensuring that there’s sufficient protections for C-V2X from interference from WiFi.
Qualcomm undertook a large scale interoperability test in China last week. Building on this, can you compare the enthusiasm in China for C-V2X to that in the U.S. and in Europe? I know that Qualcomm’s got several European partners on board as well, so how would you say enthusiasm in the three major regions of the world contrasts with each other?
So you know as I said we’re hopeful, we’re very excited that C-V2X will be rolled out in China in the next…within a matter of a couple of months here, if not before. So that’s very exciting development for Qualcomm. We’ve worked for a long time now with many of the automotive manufacturers who sell cars in China. So there will be cars that are sold in China with Qualcomm chips for C-V2X in the very near future and we’re obviously you know extraordinarily excited about that. So that’s one point."
"Second point is, actually believe it or not, in China they are using the upper 20MHz for C-V2X of the 5.9GHz band. That matches up perfectly, it’s the same 20MHz that’s part of the 30MHz that the FCC is allocating here for C-V2X in the United States. So when you’re rolling out a new technology harmonization of the spectrum, having the spectrum be allocated similarly around the world is very helpful, it reduces costs, it allows economies of scale to be achieved. So you know the fact that the United States is on the cusp here of allocating the upper 30 and the upper 30 matches up with the 20 that China is using is a very very positive development for C-V2X. The harmonization means that we can keep the costs down. So it’s always harmonization in the spectrum is a very very good thing for us and for consumers.
In terms of the comparison that’s one of the things that we have been saying to the FCC. Hey please please please let’s get going with allocating the spectrum in the United States because the spectrum as been allocated in China and C-V2X has been rolling out in China. So you know, in Qualcomm, we’re a global company so we want everyone to be using the best wireless communications technology, the technology that we invent. We want the technology to proliferate as quickly as possible and as broadly as possible around the world. So I don’t say this in a xenophobic way, quite the opposite. We want to see the whole world have the benefits of C-V2X and not just one region or one country and so you know we think that one more reason we’ve been urging the FCC to allocate spectrum for C-V2X and to give access to that spectrum immediately rather than at some indefinite time in the future.
In terms of, you know so I’m don’t view it as sort of a comparison like you one region is ahead of another region because you know these, it’s a race, these races are not a sprint. We’re working on subsequent versions of C-V2X already so the fact that China is deploying C-V2X commercially before the United States that’s great for China, we want the United State to deploy absolutely as quickly as possible too. You know that process of different countries and different regions for applying new technologies on their own timetables one that obviously we work with all the time and we just want everyone’s timetable as accelerated as possible. Again not just because it’s a good thing for Qualcomm, but because it’s a good thing for consumers all around the world that’s going to make things safe. It’s going to bring the safety benefits to as many people as possible and as quickly as possible."
Given that in the telecommunications sector especially, a lead in patents almost always determines which company dominates the market, how would you describe Qualcomm’s patents for C-V2X when compared to others such as those from AutoTalks, Datang and Huawei?
Dean: "Yeah so you know dominate the market that’s not a characterization that I would ever use [laughs]. You know the chipset market whether it’s for phones, for tablets for computers or for cars it's extraordinarily competitive. There are global competitors in every different aspect of the provision of chips. Low end, middle end, high end, smartphones, tablets, IoT devices, cars, in every one of those different markets there’s intense hyper-competition. We welcome that at Qualcomm. We thrive on it. We are known for our ability to both work with other vendors because we have to that, we have to have our chips in so many different manufacturers’ equipment. And also we absolutely feel good about competing with other folks. We respect all those companies that you mentioned. That we have very complex relationships with many companies around the world. Sometimes there might be a company who we may compete with in certain areas but that we are partners with in other respects and we are collaborators with in other respects. So, we, you know I would say we absolutely welcome competition, we respect all companies you mentioned and you know we’re happy to see how markets play out."
Okay, well that’s it from my end. Thank you for taking out your time.
Dean: "Okay no my pleasure. I enjoyed it very much. Those were outstanding questions."
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About the author: Ramish is a seasoned technology writer and editor with more than a decade of experience. He specializes in semiconductor fabrication and market analysis. With a background in finance and supply chain management - via his bachelors in Finance and a micromasters in supply chain management from MIT - Ramish combines financial rigor with deep industry insight to deliver accurate and authoritative coverage.
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