Programmer???

[German1234]

Originally Posted by luv2xlr8

Well yes in 3rd world countries like Pakistan, we do emphasize on programming alot because we the SEs and SDs have to do the so called donkey work (coding), most of the designing, documentation, analysis is already done on the "on sites" offices in US or Europe etc. for whom we are working for.. So here in Pakistan we talk about programming language expertise with respect to C/C++, Java, .Net and now a days you see a lot of PHP, Ruby


If you actually try to understand what a Software Engineer is, a SE is a person who actually design systems (software systems) from the highest level of abstraction which can be a diagram to little bits and bytes. and once you have to put it in actual shape (the actual software) then you decide which programming language to use, tools and technologies all that. So what a SE does in Pakistan is mostly the last part, CODE !!

I don't completely agree with that. It all depends on which software house you are working, what projects you are working on AND most importantly, how much your experience is. So, if you have 1-2 years of experience min., you may get a chance to take part in most of the phases, provided the magnitude of the project is relatively small. I was responsible for a complete project developed for Continental Airlines after only 1 and a half year of experience. The size was mid level and my manager was really a nice guy, who gave me a chance to lead the whole project. So, it is possible to get a flavor of everything if you are lucky enough. But yes, before the 1-2 years, you are nothing but a CODER who can be compared to the "Chote chai lao", except for the chai, you do the chunks of code

[EvaNgeList]

Agreed, but Sajid bhai, it doesn't even have to be 1-2 years of being considered a lowly coder. I was leading the team next to your cubicles 6 months after I joined, fresh from school. So it really depends on:

• Your luck and Allah's Rehmat
• The nature of the project and the client
• Your team and more importantly, your team lead/manager

And I learned a LOT, both technically and in building a team.

Basically, I'm sick of the negativity that I see everywhere (online and offline) coming from Pakistanis with regards to the Tech industry. Whenever new people such as non-techie ask for information, they're shown a picture that life as a SE sucks. In truth, its really not that bad.

Hold your heads up high you bloody coders!

[Fraz]

Originally Posted by EvaNgeList

Agreed, but Sajid bhai, it doesn't even have to be 1-2 years of being considered a lowly coder. I was leading the team next to your cubicles 6 months after I joined, fresh from school. So it really depends on:

• Your luck and Allah's Rehmat
• The nature of the project and the client
• Your team and more importantly, your team lead/manager

And I learned a LOT, both technically and in building a team.

Basically, I'm sick of the negativity that I see everywhere (online and offline) coming from Pakistanis with regards to the Tech industry. Whenever new people such as non-techie ask for information, they're shown a picture that life as a SE sucks. In truth, its really not that bad.

Hold your heads up high you bloody coders!

A negative experience does / should not imply a negative attitude for a starter towards
Programming its just that one should learn and be prepared for the obstacles ahead ...
so its experience that can be negative but it should not be the attitude ...

[jin_baba]

the kind of programming we do in local software houses is no where close to the spirit of programming...our software houses make coders, not programmers....

have a look at this article...

Lucky to be a Programmer : Gustavo Duarte

a great post...

[luv2xlr8]

Hmm .. Well of you were in Techlogix I guess ! That's a good company, one of the best, they say its Google in Pakistan. But then one cant generalize with one such company. I agree that in the past few years we have taken a totally different direction as an industry. Lot of investment, Lot of MIT, Stanford techie stuff coming to Pakistan as start ups, but how many companies are there and what masses do they employ ? After Techlogix we Have Netsol(350 - 400 Developer), NCR(300 - 400 developers), Systems(300 - 400 avg), Trg(not sure), Innovative (100 - 120). Except NCR and TRG all of them are typical 3rd world philosophy employers. So a Techlogix like company is hard to find or doesn't exist.

I have a theory to back my argument which is, Pakistan is a 3rd world Country or an Emerging/developing Country. For the rest world we are a very cost effective place (cheap labor, low running expense which is going up day by day) to offshore work from US and European market. out of that 90% work is the usual Database eccentric development with a difference of tools and technologies. This causes us (in general not w.r.t to a few companies) to still be a labor class Tech industry, Hence all the design and architectural phase of the project is done on site and rest of the typical use case programming is done offshore.

Consider India, it has a pretty huge market as compared to Pakistan, and people and i personally would agree that Indians are good mathematicians but not good Software Engineers (guess that's what someone from google said). BUT Yet what they have is that, they have specialized in almost any tech domain that you can think of (almost). They have crossed the threshold (as i call it) for not being a 3rd world labor tech industry. that doesn't mean they dont have a labor class, for that they have a very different and interesting strategy. What they do is they train non degree holders to tools for rapid development. People in techlogix might know about our (techlogix mostly) and their BPM industry. We have software engineers working for our BPMs where as in India Big companies employ non degree holders possibly high school qualified people and they train them on the tools, and that's there donkey team.

Summary to my point is if a country doesn't have some specialized domain to offer (it can be database eccentric applications but with the most complex enterprise); with time that country would become just become a "coder class" solution providers, and as with the time, more competition, you would have to do more in less money which means a Graphic Designer would be fulfilling the responsibility of a Web Developer, and a Web Developer doing an architects job to cut costs. Hence you would see big companies doing not so good work as i mentioned earlier, as its hard to progress with a philosophy like techlogix if you don't have good enough people to carry it on.

[Sanad]

I have a question. Where can i learn to work with SQL/.Net/Visual studio to design basic medical apps for use in a medical setup? Strictly non-professional. Just so i can design basic apps to keep my medical setup organized in the future. A good institution or setup which'll teach me properly. And no, i dont have time for home-study. I need someone to train me, someone who knows their stuff.