An Interesting Conversation Between A Student (muslim) And Teacher (atheist)

[Dr.Farhan]

Originally Posted by SiB

Note: I really respect you Jeff bhai, don't take it as a personal offense.

But just because one guy, who's cosidered to be "sadiq" and "ameen" says that there's a God, and since you believe in everything I say, believe this too, is not reason enough to make a person believe that there indeed is a God. I know that muslims respect Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) a lot, but is it sensible for a person to believe whatever a person says?

Besides, how will you convince an atheist? Won't he just laugh back at you? He probably won't hold Prophet Muhammad's word credible, because he probably doesn't thinks that he was a reliable man.

The answer is very simple. Donot believe in any God at all/...

just look at the world around you, and study science, DONOT study religion, ONLY study science.. try to study the world, nature, weather, air, water, etc..agian, saying , DONOT read ANY religion or relate it to science etc..

Keep on studying science and you will see that the whole universe, (as far as man has explored it, ) has a very very delicate balance.. since man has found history of thousands o years, and believes the history to be Millions of years old,m and the delicate balance of Air, water, fire have remained the same, just study more science to find out how this balance is at equilibrium from centuries and still is..

the more you study science, the more you will know,.. that knowledge is what matters..the prophet didnt say anything, and there is no God..only science and how the system of the world is running...

That scientific study is what aethists and all muslims should believe in, instead of blindly following any doctrine..

Then the student is a douche bag, It's a universal fact, that people have brains, it can be seen, it can be touched, it can be smelled too, once the brain is out of the skull, obviously. It's no mystery.

to proove that a person HAS a brain, which can be felt, touched, smelled, etc, you have to cut open a skull and take the brain out.. the douchbagginess? you have to KILL that person in the process.. so only after his death, the CVERTIFICATION can be given that the person had a brain?

Apply that same to actually being able to know, feel, see God, you can easily get that oppurtunity when you die, and leave this earth..Fair enough..isnt it?

[towelie]

[AhmedKhan]

Originally Posted by loyals

Of course we take the prescribed medicine because we 'believe' in Doctors and our this behavior is also influenced by the other people's faith with the doctors. I know they are qualified individuals , but i gave you an example of an illiterate person. He simply has to put his faith with the doctor.

If you look at the Islamic history, Prophet Muhammad (S) didn't suddenly ask people to believe in God, instead he was famous for being 'Sadiq' and 'Amin' and at one point he asked people if he says there is an army of men behind this cliff would you believe that, they all said yes we will, because we know you don't lie. Hence Prophet Said, then also believe that there is one God which name is Allah.

So what i meant it's not uncommon among human beings to put faith or believe people. And like you said it's a safe bet to believe in a Doctor therefore for me it's also a safe bet to believe in a Prophet esp., the one who is known for being 'sadiq' and 'amin' even among those who didn't believe in him.

No sir, you don't put your "faith" in any doctor, you put your "faith" (if you want to call if that) in the system that produces doctor. When someone asserts (in Pakistan) that he/she is a doctor, everyone knows that this person has been through a medical school for 5 years where he/she was rigorously trained in medical science. That's why you need a "license". Same is true for a lawyer or an accountant or an architect. You don't put "faith" in these people, you know that they are qualified to opine on whatever problem you may have. "Faith" would be if you asked any random individual off the street to treat you. THAT would be faith. That's precisely the reason you see doctors have half the alphabet next to their names because those letters give you confidence. An "illiterate" would rely on those letters and not on the individual so it's not a matter of "faith". It's a system and a process that provides you with an assurance that a certain individual is certified and licensed to carry out a particule job.

There is a friend of mine, it's said about him that even if you put a gun to his head, he won't lie (figuratively speaking, no one has actually put a gun to his head). Some of the other friends who don't like this friend of mine that much agree that he doesn't lie. Some people want to beat the crap out of him but even them, they too say that he doesn't lie. He doesn't lie to an extent that it becomes a little problematic at time. He would even be "diplomatic" if he thought it included lying. Everyone who knows him knows one thing about him for sure, he doesn't lie. In your opinion, should I believe him if he said he was the Prophet or just that he is not a prophet but God communicates with him through an angel? (I would believe him if he said there was an army but I know he would never say that because it's unlikely).

So no, people don't put their faith in other people and it's not very common. Even the friends you trust, they have gained that trust over time. You have "faith" in them because they have proven it to be so. Blind "faith" is very rare.

About scientific "proof". Science doesn't just go by what is determinable by the 5 senses otherwise all of us would be afloat. You can't see, smell, taste, feel or hear gravity but it's there. It's there because there is "evidence" of it. A human being can't function if there is no brain. There mere fact that the professor was standing there listening and speaking and understanding is more than enough evidence that he has a brain. Whether or no he is intelligent is subjective but presence of his brain is undeniable.

When it comes to God, there is no "evidence" to suggest that there is one. If you are going to argue that something exists, you have to provide evidence of its existance. There was no "faith" in gravity, it's existence was supported by "evidence". There is no evidence for God. Whatever you say is evidence of God has other explanations such as big bang or evolution or centrifugal forces or climate or plate movements or what have you.

If there is evidence, it's contrary to God's existence. God is Benevolent and the most Merciful, is he not? Any individual who believes in God believes Him to be the most Loving and Merciful. If God was really that Loving and Merciful, how do you explain Haiti and Chile and Turkey? This is only very recent. Old and women and children, it doesn't seem very "Merciful" and "Loving" to me, I don't know about you. So either God is not all that good that we make Him to be or He simply doesn't exist, you can choose what you like.

Originally Posted by towelie

How about coming up with something intelligent to say or do you really have nothing to say as a rebuttal when your beliefs are questioned? Videos and pictures doesn't do that great a job. Just an opinion though.

[Kayawish]

dont insult hitler here...he was the one who wanted to get rid of jews in this world so that palestine can live carmly

[SiB]

Originally Posted by Kayawish

dont insult hitler here...he was the one who wanted to get rid of jews in this world so that palestine can live carmly

You really are a dumb fuck, aren't you?

I would consider it as an insult, to even indulge myself into a debate with you.

Farewell, Sire!

[loyals]

There is a friend of mine, it's said about him that even if you put a gun to his head, he won't lie (figuratively speaking, no one has actually put a gun to his head). Some of the other friends who don't like this friend of mine that much agree that he doesn't lie. Some people want to beat the crap out of him but even them, they too say that he doesn't lie. He doesn't lie to an extent that it becomes a little problematic at time. He would even be "diplomatic" if he thought it included lying. Everyone who knows him knows one thing about him for sure, he doesn't lie. In your opinion, should I believe him if he said he was the Prophet or just that he is not a prophet but God communicates with him through an angel? (I would believe him if he said there was an army but I know he would never say that because it's unlikely).

Read more: An Interesting Conversation Between A Student (muslim) And Teacher (atheist)

@AhemdKhan.

Granted he never lies, I am sure he would never ask you to believe that an angel came to him ? This is not simple as that, there are series of events, including revelation of Quran, I don't see any reason why a sane person would lie in this fashion to the whole community. And it's been proved that the life got better at mecca during that time after the revelation..... it was not merely a person telling someone that an angel came to him blah blah.

About scientific "proof". Science doesn't just go by what is determinable by the 5 senses otherwise all of us would be afloat. You can't see, smell, taste, feel or hear gravity but it's there. It's there because there is "evidence" of it. A human being can't function if there is no brain. There mere fact that the professor was standing there listening and speaking and understanding is more than enough evidence that he has a brain. Whether or no he is intelligent is subjective but presence of his brain is undeniable.

Read more: An Interesting Conversation Between A Student (muslim) And Teacher (atheist)

Science only can prove the existence of something that it can 'observe' - However if science can not observe something this does not mean that something does not exist at all. I have visited some palmists, they actually told my past the way it is., and i don't see how science can prove that either ? and it was not just random speculation, it was very specific including revealing the name of my ex...... There are many things that science can't prove or observe but that does not mean those things don't exist...

[AhmedKhan]

Originally Posted by loyals

@AhemdKhan.

Granted he never lies, I am sure he would never ask you to believe that an angel came to him ? This is not simple as that, there are series of events, including revelation of Quran, I don't see any reason why a sane person would lie in this fashion to the whole community. And it's been proved that the life got better at mecca during that time after the revelation..... it was not merely a person telling someone that an angel came to him blah blah.

You said he (PBUH) was knows as "Sadiq" and "Ameen", what I was trying to get at is, if that's the only qualification you are looking for, there are other people who are "sadiq" and "ameen", although only a handful but they are out there. I was just trying to point out that basing your argument on "sadiq" and "ameen" won't get you too far.

Originally Posted by loyals

Science only can prove the existence of something that it can 'observe' - However if science can not observe something this does not mean that something does not exist at all. I have visited some palmists, they actually told my past the way it is., and i don't see how science can prove that either ? and it was not just random speculation, it was very specific including revealing the name of my ex...... There are many things that science can't prove or observe but that does not mean those things don't exist...

Again, like I said, it doesn't have to be "observable" as long as there is "evidence". Like I said, you can't "observe" gravity but there is evidence of it just like how a professor's brain can't be "observed" but there is evidence of it.

Yes, see now THAT is something that I can't respond to. A person's entire life is written in his/her hands including his/her ex's names. My biggest fear has always been that what if my wife happens to be a palmist, she will know things that I wouldn't want her to know.

I agree, like the text of a person's life in his hands can't be read by science or "jinn" can't be seen niether can magic and what not. Anyway, this thread isn't about all this paranormal (sub-intelligence) activities.

[mbby2k]

yawn..............