Bomb Blast in Islamabad Marriott Hotel

[hsyed26]

Originally Posted by AhmedKhan

What are you talking about? What development and illetracy and all? This has got nothing to do with people of NWFP, ok a little but not like your post seems to suggest. Who do you think are the REAL victims? Not us? We get one bomb in our "cities" and we go crazy, making threads and what not. How many threads have we made about blasts in FATA and NWFP?

Afganistan was invaded, a country crawling full of Talis and Al-Qaeda. nobody got caught and not a lot of them were killed. So what happened to them all? Vanished in thin air? No, they moved in Pakistan. Now you have to remember, these people are not som bunch of idiots or "outlaws". These are the people who have resisted the world's largest army, fought through civil war and established a country. Why wouldn't be they better than Pakistan Army. Army is such a *****, they are sending FC and Khasdar to fight these. Does that sound fair? But they want to save their face so they send security personnel on "suicide missions". What's the logic of sending paramilitary, poorly equipped security to one of the world's rather world's most experienced fighters. They have been fighting for over a generation now. They have fought the best armies of the world and so far have the upper hand. Who in their right mind thinks FC or Khasdar can crush them? Pakistan Army just doesn't want to humiliate themselves.

I don't know why people think of it as an "economic" terms. Yes, they are using they are getting "pawns" due to this reason but they are not who they are because of economic undergrowth. They have huge fundings and they are educated people with an ideology that drives everyone...World domination. Everyone wants that, they just have chosen not to play by the rules.

Our Army STILL considers them "assets" and proxy wariorrs. Perhaps for a time like this where we can project the US attacking Pakistan.

It's not such an easy problem to solve. They are much better trained than the Army and way way more motivated. They have nothing to lose. It's a very tough enemy to fight. Moreover, they have a network of tunnels and caves which are natural "bunkers". You can bomb and shell them all you want and it wouldn't make a difference. It's easy for us to say, kill them all. 2 problems with that, 1) do you REALLY want to kill EVERYONE in NWFP? 2) Even if you do, how would you do it because they are in caves and bunkers?

You talk about Saudis and what not. All the terrorists in the world are their desciples. They are as you say "noobs" and/or "wannabe". We have the real deal. We have the masters and the trainers. We have the producers of terror all over the world. Our task is many times harder than anyone in the world. So let's not get into Saudis did it.

Remember, their aim is not Islam or not Amreeka...it's world domination with their idealogy (Islam is what they LIKE to call it). They are not very difference from any other "superpower" or imperialist state. The only difference is they don't play by the rules and that makes all the difference.

See illiteracy has a lot to do with it. Without education your means of support is gone. The usual flawed arguments of logic and religion soon fall into place and you've got nothing short of a political ideology. Pray tell us, would be the ideal way of combating this? We've seen dialogue, we've seen direct action, we've seen compromises, we've seen hard stances. Where has it landed us? It's basically caused one region to remain backward so badly that development on a massive scale couldn't even save it. It's caused a repercussion on the economy, day to day life and general well being of the nation.

To the answer of your question, frankly speaking, I'd move out people through tightly controlled borders from the NWFP, verify and then nuke it till there's no tomorrow. Honestly speaking, the bunkers and caves they have are not necessarily all that cracked up to be. Enough bunker busting bombs and you could cause a pretty effective cave-in. Worse for worse, you stop the supply or delay their tactical advantage enough to give you a competitive edge. Soak the tunnels with enough radiation via nukes and I'd like to see how long you can stay down in a hot rock tunnel that melts your skin off.

Sadly speaking, no one knows the real situation about the Saudis is. I used to work in one of the more sensitive areas of the Saudi government. They intelligence tabs they kept would make anyone shudder. Thanks to the somewhat oppressive regime, they had full access to anything and everything. After their bombings in May and subsequent attacks, they went full out. Yes, there was collateral damage, but I've yet to see something overly significant or as bold as this type of attack. In terms of intelligence and training, you'd be hard-pressed to find other such well-equipped and trained fighters. See the current crop of Tallybans (I like this name much more) is basically second generation. The Saudi guys are first generation, Afghanistan seasoned. They've found hiding spots in such random places in Saudi that even the government has had to admit they're sneaky bastards. But that didn't mean they didn't try something. The following operations were collateral heavy, but they knocked a significant enough of them out to put enough fear in them that they've had to rethink their basic strategies.

Another reason why the Saudis managed to get rid of their extremist problem was that the general population hated them with a passion. Again, there were reverent supporters and significant parts of Saudi did support them. The people living in the cities or anywhere with a remotely educated populace were foaming at the mouth. Here in Pakistan, every single person has a little soft spot for the Tallybans. Like it or not, we hate America. Regardless of whatever a few exceptions say, most people love their conspiracy theories and whenever something goes wrong with America, people secretly cheer and applaud the efforts of the Tallyban. Sadly, when collateral damage happens, then people realize that maybe this wasn't such a good idea.

I look next door to our neighbor, India. More resources no doubt, more diversity and lots of hardcore hating groups with plenty of funding and education. Why is it that they haven't got some crazy whackjobs running around killing people? Same culture, same society (to a certain extent), same problems. Why is it that amongst 1 billion people, a large crazy hard-core fundamental group hasn't grown to take over the country? I mean besides some of the large-scale Hindu political parties, who clearly differentiate themselves from their rather right-wing lapdogs with lots of statements separating their aims for the party's main aims, why hasn't India gone down the drain? Foresight? Proper foreign policy? Proper domestic planning and growth?

At this point, I realize the Afghan war card will be thrown and I respect that. Frankly speaking, if people seemed to have recognized that now, we had some pretty talented people back during the Afghan war, if enough ruckus was kicked about it then, I highly doubt that support would have come this willingly for the Tallyban. Regardless of however much influence and pressure we would have been from America back then, we'd be in a better position to negotiate later on in the future. What happened there? Lack of communication channels? Peer pressure? No media? No newspapers? No radio? No what that stopped someone from actively proclaiming this was going to go balls up in less than 3 years?

Honestly, every time I look at the news, I don't understand why no one gets up and attempts to take a stance. We're attempting to talk to them, and yet launching an operation against them. Do one thing, not fucking two at the same time. Make your mind up.

I've seen my share of bombings up close and personal. There's nothing more freakishly scary as it.

[stickman!]

Originally Posted by hsyed26

Honestly, every time I look at the news, I don't understand why no one gets up and attempts to take a stance. We're attempting to talk to them, and yet launching an operation against them. Do one thing, not fucking two at the same time. Make your mind up.

[ScArFaCe]

man this really sux :S ... india , america nd now even afghanistan they r destroyin our country ... though im 100% sure no1 can tk pak away frm us ... we gonna rule one day fr sure

[Rebel]

Originally Posted by hsyed26

See illiteracy has a lot to do with it. Without education your means of support is gone. The usual flawed arguments of logic and religion soon fall into place and you've got nothing short of a political ideology. Pray tell us, would be the ideal way of combating this? We've seen dialogue, we've seen direct action, we've seen compromises, we've seen hard stances. Where has it landed us? It's basically caused one region to remain backward so badly that development on a massive scale couldn't even save it. It's caused a repercussion on the economy, day to day life and general well being of the nation.

To the answer of your question, frankly speaking, I'd move out people through tightly controlled borders from the NWFP, verify and then nuke it till there's no tomorrow. Honestly speaking, the bunkers and caves they have are not necessarily all that cracked up to be. Enough bunker busting bombs and you could cause a pretty effective cave-in. Worse for worse, you stop the supply or delay their tactical advantage enough to give you a competitive edge. Soak the tunnels with enough radiation via nukes and I'd like to see how long you can stay down in a hot rock tunnel that melts your skin off.

Sadly speaking, no one knows the real situation about the Saudis is. I used to work in one of the more sensitive areas of the Saudi government. They intelligence tabs they kept would make anyone shudder. Thanks to the somewhat oppressive regime, they had full access to anything and everything. After their bombings in May and subsequent attacks, they went full out. Yes, there was collateral damage, but I've yet to see something overly significant or as bold as this type of attack. In terms of intelligence and training, you'd be hard-pressed to find other such well-equipped and trained fighters. See the current crop of Tallybans (I like this name much more) is basically second generation. The Saudi guys are first generation, Afghanistan seasoned. They've found hiding spots in such random places in Saudi that even the government has had to admit they're sneaky bastards. But that didn't mean they didn't try something. The following operations were collateral heavy, but they knocked a significant enough of them out to put enough fear in them that they've had to rethink their basic strategies.

Another reason why the Saudis managed to get rid of their extremist problem was that the general population hated them with a passion. Again, there were reverent supporters and significant parts of Saudi did support them. The people living in the cities or anywhere with a remotely educated populace were foaming at the mouth. Here in Pakistan, every single person has a little soft spot for the Tallybans. Like it or not, we hate America. Regardless of whatever a few exceptions say, most people love their conspiracy theories and whenever something goes wrong with America, people secretly cheer and applaud the efforts of the Tallyban. Sadly, when collateral damage happens, then people realize that maybe this wasn't such a good idea.

I look next door to our neighbor, India. More resources no doubt, more diversity and lots of hardcore hating groups with plenty of funding and education. Why is it that they haven't got some crazy whackjobs running around killing people? Same culture, same society (to a certain extent), same problems. Why is it that amongst 1 billion people, a large crazy hard-core fundamental group hasn't grown to take over the country? I mean besides some of the large-scale Hindu political parties, who clearly differentiate themselves from their rather right-wing lapdogs with lots of statements separating their aims for the party's main aims, why hasn't India gone down the drain? Foresight? Proper foreign policy? Proper domestic planning and growth?

At this point, I realize the Afghan war card will be thrown and I respect that. Frankly speaking, if people seemed to have recognized that now, we had some pretty talented people back during the Afghan war, if enough ruckus was kicked about it then, I highly doubt that support would have come this willingly for the Tallyban. Regardless of however much influence and pressure we would have been from America back then, we'd be in a better position to negotiate later on in the future. What happened there? Lack of communication channels? Peer pressure? No media? No newspapers? No radio? No what that stopped someone from actively proclaiming this was going to go balls up in less than 3 years?

Honestly, every time I look at the news, I don't understand why no one gets up and attempts to take a stance. We're attempting to talk to them, and yet launching an operation against them. Do one thing, not fucking two at the same time. Make your mind up.

I've seen my share of bombings up close and personal. There's nothing more freakishly scary as it.

There you go someone who agrees with me and has time and articulation on his hands..

in the interest of sounding ignorant "Maar do saalon ko"

Even the solution presented here is subject to flaw but there isnt really a flawless way to set things right, there never was and frankly the margin between cost and benefit keeps getting smaller to the point where there wont be any and then moves to the wrong end.. so really the dillydallying and the half assing needs to stop "maro yaa maaro"

[AhmedKhan]

Originally Posted by hsyed26

See illiteracy has a lot to do with it. Without education your means of support is gone. The usual flawed arguments of logic and religion soon fall into place and you've got nothing short of a political ideology. Pray tell us, would be the ideal way of combating this? We've seen dialogue, we've seen direct action, we've seen compromises, we've seen hard stances. Where has it landed us? It's basically caused one region to remain backward so badly that development on a massive scale couldn't even save it. It's caused a repercussion on the economy, day to day life and general well being of the nation.

To the answer of your question, frankly speaking, I'd move out people through tightly controlled borders from the NWFP, verify and then nuke it till there's no tomorrow. Honestly speaking, the bunkers and caves they have are not necessarily all that cracked up to be. Enough bunker busting bombs and you could cause a pretty effective cave-in. Worse for worse, you stop the supply or delay their tactical advantage enough to give you a competitive edge. Soak the tunnels with enough radiation via nukes and I'd like to see how long you can stay down in a hot rock tunnel that melts your skin off.

Sadly speaking, no one knows the real situation about the Saudis is. I used to work in one of the more sensitive areas of the Saudi government. They intelligence tabs they kept would make anyone shudder. Thanks to the somewhat oppressive regime, they had full access to anything and everything. After their bombings in May and subsequent attacks, they went full out. Yes, there was collateral damage, but I've yet to see something overly significant or as bold as this type of attack. In terms of intelligence and training, you'd be hard-pressed to find other such well-equipped and trained fighters. See the current crop of Tallybans (I like this name much more) is basically second generation. The Saudi guys are first generation, Afghanistan seasoned. They've found hiding spots in such random places in Saudi that even the government has had to admit they're sneaky bastards. But that didn't mean they didn't try something. The following operations were collateral heavy, but they knocked a significant enough of them out to put enough fear in them that they've had to rethink their basic strategies.

Another reason why the Saudis managed to get rid of their extremist problem was that the general population hated them with a passion. Again, there were reverent supporters and significant parts of Saudi did support them. The people living in the cities or anywhere with a remotely educated populace were foaming at the mouth. Here in Pakistan, every single person has a little soft spot for the Tallybans. Like it or not, we hate America. Regardless of whatever a few exceptions say, most people love their conspiracy theories and whenever something goes wrong with America, people secretly cheer and applaud the efforts of the Tallyban. Sadly, when collateral damage happens, then people realize that maybe this wasn't such a good idea.

I look next door to our neighbor, India. More resources no doubt, more diversity and lots of hardcore hating groups with plenty of funding and education. Why is it that they haven't got some crazy whackjobs running around killing people? Same culture, same society (to a certain extent), same problems. Why is it that amongst 1 billion people, a large crazy hard-core fundamental group hasn't grown to take over the country? I mean besides some of the large-scale Hindu political parties, who clearly differentiate themselves from their rather right-wing lapdogs with lots of statements separating their aims for the party's main aims, why hasn't India gone down the drain? Foresight? Proper foreign policy? Proper domestic planning and growth?

At this point, I realize the Afghan war card will be thrown and I respect that. Frankly speaking, if people seemed to have recognized that now, we had some pretty talented people back during the Afghan war, if enough ruckus was kicked about it then, I highly doubt that support would have come this willingly for the Tallyban. Regardless of however much influence and pressure we would have been from America back then, we'd be in a better position to negotiate later on in the future. What happened there? Lack of communication channels? Peer pressure? No media? No newspapers? No radio? No what that stopped someone from actively proclaiming this was going to go balls up in less than 3 years?

Honestly, every time I look at the news, I don't understand why no one gets up and attempts to take a stance. We're attempting to talk to them, and yet launching an operation against them. Do one thing, not fucking two at the same time. Make your mind up.

I've seen my share of bombings up close and personal. There's nothing more freakishly scary as it.

I acknowdlge that education and economics is a problem to certain extent but not "the" problem. The entire country is uneducated and underdeveloped. With the exception of very few main cities, where do you see development in Pakistan? Interior Sindh? Balochistan? Lower Punjab? Illiteracy and underdevelopment is all what we have.

Yes, I know all about Saudi intelligence and also about the seasoned fighters. What is different about those fighters is that they truly went for "jihad", for Islam. They weren't necessarily part of the civil war subsequent to Russian withdrawl. They do not adhere to the mutated ideology. See Talis had a dream but once you realize your one dream, you start to take your dreams seriously. Talis did control Afghanistan for few years, now they know it's not impossible and they know the feeling. Their ideology has mutated. The ones in Saudi Arabia do not have that. Moreover, they don't have the supply like these ones have. The ones in Saudi Arabia are strategically at a greater disadvantage. Further, the US is not pounding on Saudis. Additionally, Saudi government has all the money in the world. They send these fighters to "rehabilitation" and give them money to have fun. I have always maintained, if you give these Talis women and booz, they will forget the "heaven" and if those women happen to be Russians, they will forget the hoors too. So my point is, what Saudis had is not even close to what we have so we can't really compare the two.

Our problem is not that easy. We would LIKE to negotiate but the US wouldn't let us. They keep attacking and keep pressurizing the government. That's why you see the two. It's easy for us to talk on the forum but can we not sense the immense pressure the US has put on us to tackle this problem militarily? So we have to do some of that and we are doing it.

Again, like I said before, Pakistan Army does not "REALLY" want to kill these "Talis" anyway and consider them "assets". Of course, it's understandable. Afterall Pak Army trained them, supported them, provided them weapons and strategic support. For a moment, do think about it, let's say we ARE attacked by India or the US, you think the ************* army can do anything? Have we not seen what they can do in 3 wars against India and their "tactical" operation in Lal Masjid. It's not wonder that the top brass seem to rely more on these "expereinced" and "trained" fighters more than the pussies in uniforms.

If you put all this together, i.e. they are assets, they are attacking civilian population, the US pressure, pressure from people of Pakistan, possible involvement of intelligence agencies of Pakistan or other countries; you can clearly see that the government/Army is being pulled in every which way and they HAVE to keep all parties happy in some way. So they do a little of this, a little of that and try to manage.

My point really is that we NEED to understand that this problem is not as simple as we think. It's not economics. It's not education. It's not about indiscriminate bombing either. It's a complex multitude of things and solution would have to be at least as complex as the problem.

[Rebel]

Originally Posted by AhmedKhan

My point really is that we NEED to understand that this problem is not as simple as we think. It's not economics. It's not education. It's not about indiscriminate bombing either. It's a complex multitude of things and solution would have to be at least as complex as the problem.

God bless the one who put this theory to shame by inventing the knot used to tie shoelaces (you probably use velcro strappies; after all untying laces' probably harder if not just as hard as tieing them no)

Please dont insult our intelligence by telling us were naive and dont understand the complexities of whats going on..regardless the fact is things cant go on as they are and a line has to be drawn somewhere..a little bit of this and a little bit of that is half assedness and makes every1 a little happy and alot of angry...

If your being pulled from all sides youll eventually pick the 1 you think is the better of the lot even if it means losing your arm just so you can stop getting stretched for the rest of your existence like a piece of gum and snap..

No ones saying its easy no one is saying any solution is flawless.. infact I even mentioned that regardless of what we do there will be consequences..

you insist that we understand the problem like you, yet you fail to propose anything that closely somewhat resembles a solution.. im not saying you have to be right heck I dont even know if Im right...

but just because this is a forum doesnt mean we cant say what we think shud happen.. "the very easy to talk on a forum without understanding the realitys" is a grosssly overplayed card.

Is it easy for me to sit here in my cmfy hotel bed and hark about what we need to do? Yes ...

am I going to do something about it myself ? No ...

Do I have the right to say what Im saying ? Debatable

Am I right ? I think soo ...

your not telling us why were wrong your just telling us were wrong because "its complicated"...

and please lets be fair.. I consider you naive for suggesting that had we been supported by the US to negotiate we wud have been better off.. you realllyyy should know better by now Im sure you do.. you probably just selectively ignored it for a bit... happens to me all the time aswell..

Bottom line (which I may add is being reiterited for the god knows how manyeth time)


You need to take a stance. Pick one stick with it and hopefully youll have solved the problem with minimul loss.. was it the best one ? maybe not, life just to darn fucking 'complicated' but atleast your problem is solved...

ofcourse you can royaly screwup and compound your problem (something I wouldnt put past us to do) and well I really cant answer you there with tongue planted firmly in cheek.. we probably deserve everything we get which is kind of the case right now anyway so heck what have you got to lose.. at best youll save everyone some time and worry and more people can start worrying about immigration...

[An_igma]

They send these fighters to "rehabilitation" and give them money to have fun

if you give these Talis women and booz, they will forget the "heaven" and if those women happen to be Russians, they will forget the hoors too.

Afterall Pak Army trained them, supported them, provided them weapons and strategic support.

It's not wonder that the top brass seem to rely more on these "expereinced" and "trained" fighters more than the pussies in uniforms.

After making some completely reasonable posts you have this sudden rush of blood and you will come up with some crappy arguments. Again you narrowed down the solution to two points 1) ***** and 2) pussies in uniform. What the hell is wrong with you? You think these Talibans and Al Qaida people do not have there fair share of women? Or these suicide bombers are actually the sexually frustrated singles.

Coming to the second part about Pak army and talibs, it's absolutely rubbish to think that some "pussies in uniform" can train some guys into unbeatable warriors. Was it accidental? And what are these talib's accomplishments by the way? Do you think they can stand against some full fledge assault by US or even Indian army on their own?

[hsyed26]

Originally Posted by An_igma

After making some completely reasonable posts you have this sudden rush of blood and you will come up with some crappy arguments. Again you narrowed down the solution to two points 1) ***** and 2) pussies in uniform. What the hell is wrong with you? You think these Talibans and Al Qaida people do not have there fair share of women? Or these suicide bombers are actually the sexually frustrated singles.

Coming to the second part about Pak army and talibs, it's absolutely rubbish to think that some "pussies in uniform" can train some guys into unbeatable warriors. Was it accidental? And what are these talib's accomplishments by the way? Do you think they can stand against some full fledge assault by US or even Indian army on their own?

I second this. If you say that liberalization is the solution to this particular problem, then why do they stop us from doing whatever we want? The assumption being that projection of your (I refer to the Tallybans) on to us is not a valid assumption? Do we criticize and persecute them for it? No. If we respect the choices of individuals and leave them be. There is no right for anyone to criticize each other. The same applies politically, there are certain boundaries and standards that as a citizen you must follow to remain a legal citizen. Wanting to implement a whole new political and social structure without accounting for almost a good 90% of the population isn't smart either. Be prepared for some serious consequences.

And yes, a combined attack would pretty much rid them. Regardless of however many natural bunkers and tunnels that exist, when you've got 293840238409238402398403928 million bunker busters landing on your ass, you're pretty much screwed.

And no, the Saudis are in the same boat and the rehabilitation budget is nothing as to the amount of money the Saudis have. They just force them into a jail and reform them as well as they can.

i'm done.

[imadsani]

this just in on geo ..

they've been able to gain footage of the front of marriot before the bomb went off .. and while the truck is still on fire .. fire can be spotted in a room in the hotel .. NOTE: this is before the second (big) bomb went off ..

now how theyve been able to gain this footage and the authenticity .. i'll ahve to look into it .. i didnt actually see the news piece.. but am waiting for it .. if anyone else has seen it .. mind shedding soem light on it?

[Dr.Farhan]

this just opened up a whole new pandora`s box..

[AhmedKhan]

Originally Posted by An_igma

After making some completely reasonable posts you have this sudden rush of blood and you will come up with some crappy arguments. Again you narrowed down the solution to two points 1) ***** and 2) pussies in uniform. What the hell is wrong with you? You think these Talibans and Al Qaida people do not have there fair share of women? Or these suicide bombers are actually the sexually frustrated singles.

Coming to the second part about Pak army and talibs, it's absolutely rubbish to think that some "pussies in uniform" can train some guys into unbeatable warriors. Was it accidental? And what are these talib's accomplishments by the way? Do you think they can stand against some full fledge assault by US or even Indian army on their own?

Few things about my post have been misunderstood. It's my fault.

I haven't narrowed it down to ***** and pussies in uniform...although that sounds pretty darn good (nice play on words too, I didn't get it the first time).

My points were:
1) Pakistan Army does not "want" to kill them all for the reasons stated already.
2) Talis are trained but thier "invinicibility", if you will, does not come from the training but from the "expereince". They have the "home ground" advantage. Britan, Russian, US and Pakistan did not and do not have that.
3) The problem is not "only" economic or education. As we have seen, the "Fidaeen-Islam" aired their statement in English. Although that's not a criteria for "education" but they must have some educated people who are at least bilingual if not more.
4) I did not suggest that they would fight one their own but they would be extremely useful to Pakistan Army should there be a need.

I haven't disagreed with anyone completely, I was just saying that we can't blame it all on economics. There is definately reluctance on Army's side. The task is difficult. Americans are putting more than necessary pressure. These "fighters" have done nothing but fight for at least a generation if not more. Fighting is all they know so they are not as easy a target as one would consider. As to their accomplishment, what more is needed? They have never lost their country and world's largest powers have tried it.

[Rebel]

Originally Posted by Dr.Farhan

this just opened up a whole new pandora`s box..

Potentially..

And no its not just about economics but thats where it starts..

[An_igma]

Originally Posted by imadsani

this just in on geo ..

they've been able to gain footage of the front of marriot before the bomb went off .. and while the truck is still on fire .. fire can be spotted in a room in the hotel .. NOTE: this is before the second (big) bomb went off ..

now how theyve been able to gain this footage and the authenticity .. i'll ahve to look into it .. i didnt actually see the news piece.. but am waiting for it .. if anyone else has seen it .. mind shedding soem light on it?

Really? Seems like another "ojhri camp" then.