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#31
14-05-08, 10:39 PM
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 MD - the point is well taken and understood.
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The first witness is thine own consciousness ‐ See thyself, then, with thine own light     
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#33
15-05-08, 06:41 PM
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in the midnight hour, she cried more more more.... wid a Rebel yell more more more!  the mechas name is frikkin Jango..how can u not love it..
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#35
20-05-08, 09:45 AM
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Why are you not thankful to him for that? At least they did something, instead of the wasted 90s. And while yes, Mobilink was set-up before Gen. Musharraf, the real boom in the telecom sector and it's expansion came after the declaration of his telecom policies. Before that, Mobilink was the sole GSM cellular service provider in Pakistan, now we've 5. Quote:
Why don't you understand the difference between 'what actually happened' and 'what could have happened'? If a democratic government, (which you call s dictatorship) had not intervened and saved Pakistan from that disastrous situation. Quote:
We've never had such a good growing economy ever in the history of Pakistan. That of course does not means, that there is not a lot that still needs to be done. But whatever has been done, is an indicator of what good there is to come. So why are you not thankful to him for that? As for the FDIs and a 'strong export economy', please tell me just one way, in which you could have a "strong export economy" or a 'equitable distribution of wealth' or 'indigenous industries' , when your country almost got bankrupt few years ago. Will you first try to get the economy on its feet, allow sufficient money to flow in, or will you directly jump to achieve a 'strong export economy', with insufficient money? You will first allow sufficient money to come in and set along building the country, and that by creating good environment, allowing FDI's to flow in, set major industries like IT industry etc, set multinational firms, set up major construction work all around, build up more private sectors and give them roles, increase your GDP growth, repair all that bad which was done, etc etc. This is called foundation, and even this was not seen before, and this is what we're call as 'growth' in the economy, not a 'perfect' economy. BTW... here's an article on "export growth": (especially read last 3 para's) Can exports be engine of growth in Pakistan? -DAWN - Business; September 15, 2003 and this one Pakistan Books 26.5% Textiles Export Growth Despite Challenges. Quote:
Doesn't this decrease in poverty level looks like growth to you? Or is it that if someone claims 'economic growth', you automatically assume poverty levels to be decreased to a complete 0% and that anything over 0% does not mean economic growth to you? Here is some data, This is what was happening pre-1999, i.e before Musharraf: PAKISTAN: NOW, THE POVERTY BOMB GOES OFF http://www.adb.org/Documents/news/PR...prm_200203.asp This is what happened since he came: World Bank lauds Pakistan’s poverty reduction efforts -DAWN - Top Stories; October 19, 2006 https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/pk.html http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTE...579398,00.html Mir, Malik,Masood and other "super analysts", will not tell you this, becoz they are not paid to. Quote:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...12-2006_pg5_21 Country Strategy and Program Update 2006-2008 - Pakistan - ADB.org While, its true that Pakistan military got a good amount of spending, but education and health sector also received an increase in funding, which was not even seen in the 90's. So, please compare and then check whether we're on the right path or not, as being on the right path is the most important thing. Quote:
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The first witness is thine own consciousness ‐ See thyself, then, with thine own light
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#36
20-05-08, 10:32 AM
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give the devil his dues...always give the devil his due... there is no telling he might show up again to control you again,...
plus that time the devil was better than those democratic Angels that are soo much debated these days to be our saviour..
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 Screw you guys.. i`m going home...
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#37
22-05-08, 09:58 AM
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Oh God, Kursed... is there no rest for the weary? I haven't slept in two days... one of the myriad joys associated with the gentle pursuit of knowledge that takes place at the end of every academic year. And know this... my response, for now, will be short. I promise I'll come back to it once I've gotten some rest.
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What's changed? How does one explain growth under Musharraf? Well, we should not forget that 9/11 changed everything for the Musharraf regime. In fact, during 2000 and 2001, growth rates under Musharraf were actually lower than they had been in 1998 and 1999. Don't believe me? Check out the data here and here. By supporting the War on Terror, the Musharaf government benefitted tremendously from a windfall of US aid and increased standing in the international community. A good article on the factors contributing to Pakistan's economic 'miracle' under Musharraf can be found here. I realise I'm simplifying the dynamics of economic growth post-2001. I also agree with any of you who believe that GDP growth rates are not sufficient indicators of economic strength. Inflation, for instance, was high in the 1990s, as was unemployment. Poverty reduction was also a very low priority. My argument, however, is this: the only thing the Musharraf government can point towards is higher macroeconomic growth rates i.e. GDP growth. Has there been a substantial decrease in poverty? Not according to the data. Inflation? Still high. Health and education? Still at less than 2.5% of the GDP. Balance of Payments? Worsening. Fiscal deficit? Widening. Debt repayment? Musharraf actually took billions of dollars in aid and, if you look at the data, a lot of the 'rescheduled' debt is due to be repaid now. To see just how screwed Pakistan is due to its increasing debt servicing liabilities, courtesy of Musharraf and co., check this article out. After the 1997 nuclear tests, Pakistan was placed under stringent sanctions. Some had been lifted by 1999 but the fact of the matter is that until Musharraf started helping out the US in 2001, he had screwed things up as badly as Nawaz Sharif. The 'reversal' we have seen in the last eight years is not fundamentally different from what happened under Zia, another general who was a beneficiary of the USA's benevolence. Quote:
As for its 'telecom' policies. All the government did was open up the Pakistani market at a time when Telecom was taking off around the world. It wasn't just a boom in Pakistan... the telecom boom was a global phenomenon, and pretty much every country on earth experienced a tremendous amount of growth in this sector as the technology became more widespread and affordable. That's why I said, in my earlier post, that the spread of mobile technology is not something that would have leapfrogged Pakistan had Musharraf not been around. Finally, the market liberalisation policies that the Musharraf government put in place were nothing new. Even in the 1990s, particularly during the caretaker governments, successive regimes implemented IMF policies pertaining to opening up Pakistan's markets. There was nothing unique to what the Musharraf government did. Quote:
Once Pakistan had fulfilled its purpose for the US, it was forgotten. That is the story of the 1990s, and will be true once the conflict in Afghanistan draws to a close. Anyone who believes Pakistan and the US are in some kind of permanent partnership really needs to pay more attention to history. Quote:
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What has Musharraf done, then? All he's done is lower various barriers to the free operation of the market. Given the post-Fordist nature of global production and MNC operation, it would be ridiculous to argue that FDI must necessarily equate to indigenous industrial development. To the extent that there has been an expansion in manufacturing, it has not been the result of any meaningful expansion in indigenous expansion. As for poverty reduction... the government seems to believe that the fruits of economic growth trickle down. If history is anything to go by, and there are plenty of examples of this worldwide, such a belief is absurd. Equitable economic redistribution doesn't need economic growth. What it needs is pro-poor government policy initiatives. Like actually taxing the rich and providing better services to the poor. All it takes is political will. Quote:
Sounds good. Quote:
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Next time, link to articles that don't prove my point. Quote:
What is the human development index? It is an aggregate measure of illiteracy, life expectancy, and poverty. On all three fronts, Pakistan has made negligible progress when compared with similar countries. For all the growth that has arguably occurred under Musharraf, the fact remains that little has actually been done to address low levels of spending on the social sector, or to address the seriously high levels of economic inequality that characterise the economy at present. Quote:
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It's not even close. Quote:
1) Is the 'growth' really due to any special insight on the part of the Musharraf government, or did it just get lucky? 2) Has the 'growth' really changed anything? MD
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#38
23-05-08, 02:16 PM
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These debates are getting a bit too much for me ... was musharaf good? was he bad? with both sides having their own figures manipulated by the same facts ....
the bottomline is that "Musharaf Failed" ... but before you conclude that i m another one of paid musharaf basher .. i must expand my statement to all the past governments of Pakistan. True, Musharaf failed but so did Nawaz (he failed big time when compared to any other govt because of the mandate he recieved in that govt), Zia also failed, Bibi too in her two tenures, ayub, Z.A Bhutoo, who hasn't failed the nation to this date? And by all means this govt is going to fail too ... they have already started blaming Musharaf for their future failure, lolz ... like it's musharaf who's forcing them to ignore the issues of inflation, electricity and unemployment and focus on JUDGES alone ... Can some knowledgable member enlighten me on some steps taken towards solving any of the above stated issue? There is no shortage of useless wisdom in Pakistan ... lots of talk shows and some online forums show this .... there can be two opinions on Musharaf effectiveness, but there's no doubt that Pakistan is going through a severe CRISIS right now, what are we or our present govt doing about that?
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By God, he that is weakest among you shall be in my eye the strongest, until I have vindicated for him his rights; he that is strongest I will treat as the weakest, until he complies with the law: Hazrat Omar’s (R.A) principle governance rule SEO Tips
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#39
24-05-08, 11:59 PM
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First of all, The gross domsetic product (GDP) is one the primary indicators used to gauge the health of a country's economy. It represents the total dollar value of all goods and services produced over a specific time period -you can think of it as the size of the economy. So it is, important. Secondly, I think you missed the bolded sentence below. Quote:
Lets say the reduction might not have been 10%, but ATLEAST ITS 4% reduction?, ATELAST IT HAS NOT GROWN?The people you have brought in the coalition government, made this poverty to increase throughout their 10 years of leadership. Again ,increasing education and health percentage of GDP does not neccessarily means that it will start benefiting like the way its supposed to be, their are various other factors which need to be looked in. The difference was in intentions, which people, having hate in their hearts cannot see. This is what happened in that short period of two years before 9/11. Pakistan’s revenue increased from Rs.308 billion to become Rs.395 billion. Exports increased from $7.5 billion to become $9.2 billion. Foreign Reserves increased from $ 1 billion to become $3.25 billion. Debt servicing as a ratio to Revenue decreased from 65% to 57%. Public and external debt as a percentage to Foreign exchange earnings declined from 300% to 250%. Current account deficit decreased from $2.4 billion to become $510 million. And, Pakistan’s large-scale manufacturing grew by 11% in June 2001 against 3.5% in 1998. Then, the large-scale manufacturing sector grew by an impressive 7.8% in 2001, as against a 0.2% decline in 2000, because of strong external demand, in part arising from exchange rate depreciation. This was the highest rate of expansion since the 1980s, and was significantly higher than the annual sector average of 4% posted in the 1990s. The performance of all major industry groups was good in 2001, but some of the better growth rates were recorded in paper and board (24.9%), automobiles (23.3%), and petroleum (16.6%). At the beginning of 2001, the State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) replaced the managed float exchange rate system with a market-based, free-float system. The currency subsequently came under speculative attack on several occasions during the year, and depreciated by 18.6% against the dollar. Because of the low rate of domestic inflation, this resulted in a real depreciation of over 10% in 2001, providing a much-needed boost to exports, which were close to $9 billion for the first time. Exports expanded by 9%, with eight out of the top 10 export items recording double-digit growth rates—particularly raw cotton, leather, and synthetic textiles. The trade deficit improved, from $1.4 billion in 2000 to $1.2 billion in 2001, as did the current account deficit, from $1.1 billion to $0.5 billion over the same period. If proceeds from the Saudi Oil Facility were to be categorized as official transfers, the current account deficit would, in fact, be a surplus of $331 million. The improvement in the current account deficit came primarily from a reduction in the trade deficit, increased workers’ remittances, and higher foreign exchange purchases by SBP on the open market, which show up in the current account under private transfers -Public savings showed exceptionally high growth, and their ratio to GDP increased to 1.2% in 2001, up from 0.3% in 2000. This improvement came about as a result of a decrease in the budget deficit and improved management of SOEs. -Foreign exchange reserves rose to $3.2 billion by end-June 2001. -Net public debt as a proportion of GDP increased to 95.4% in 2001. -Public or publicly guaranteed external debt, valued at $32.8 billion, accounted for 58% of the total public debt and was equivalent to 55.1% of GDP. -Weighted average lending rates were 13.1% in June 2001, down from 13.5% in June 2000. At the end of June 2001, the net present value of Pakistan’s public external debt was estimated at about 260% of the value of exports of goods and services, far in excess of the commonly accepted benchmarks for sustainability, which fall in the range of 150–200%. Asian Development Outlook 2002 - Pakistan - DB.org If you were to bring anyone doing a better job then what has been done in the telecom or any other sector, i would not have argued. But the people you have brought in, that too due to idealistic issues and not for the sake of your country's betterment, would not even have done this regardless of US giving aid, or not. That aid would have been eaten up without the need of any bill. Tell me from your heart, if you agree that Ganja and co would have done this all(even with US aid): Some excerpts(all emphasis added): The IT industry of Pakistan with low telecommunication cost, 100 percent ownership of equity and repatriation of the foreign investors profits as well as tax exemption until 2016, has the potential to increase exports from $1.4 to $11 billion by 2011, Business Recorder learnt. Pakistan is now emerging as a major player in the global IT market Growth in Islamabad, over the last three years, has been around 300 per cent, Karachi around 180 percent and in Lahore it is around 150 per cent. The global community has placed Pakistan in the ‘First Category’ countries in 2007. Previously, in 2006 Pakistan was placed in the ‘Third Category’ countries. Moreover, Pakistan’s IT revenue had grown to 59 percent in 2006. Similarly, new IT parks in major cities are being set up across the country while 750,000 square feet of space has already been leased out to IT companies for new parks. Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily]= Also: Telecom sector has attracted an investment of $ 9 billion in the last three years. It alone created 80,000 jobs directly and 500,000 jobs indirectly. Telecom did take off around the world, but not many countries saw this type of growth and progress in this sector.This growth and prgress is something which Ganja would not have achieved in 50 more years,due to his other self-interested duties, and lack of interest in the betterment of the country. But hey, he's here, our people love to be looted again and again. If someone claims economic growth or progress, it does not mean to "alter the economy structure" LOL!. What are you trying to say, "alter the structure of economy", after 2 decades leading us to bankruptcy?? We are not talknig about "economy growth" like China, but are talking about relatively to our past. And the difference has been BIG. Whatever maximum alteration was possible was done in these 8 years, its an unthankful behaviour that you dont accept the phrase "economic growth", until the economy becomes like China's. No one ever believed that Pakistan and US are in some kind of permanent partnership.We know that they have a game, but we also know where our country was and what was needed to be done.One should not give a damn if fulfilling the needs of our country or our economic progress, has also become acceptable to US for the time being due to their so called WoT. We are not fulfilling their purpose, we are not fighting extremism for them, our economy is not progressing for them. Listening too much to foreign agents is not a good excercise, let alone believing their words. Meanwhile we dont have any other danger apart from the jihaalat of our own people who are playing in the hands of few corrupt and revenge-seeking people. Telecom and Cement could also have been expanded before, so what happened?? FDI is being directed towards those ends.It is not neccessary that most FDI is directed towards them, especially after bankruptcy, atleast FDI is there, and atleast it is being directed, double,than what is was being directed in the 90's. But the people which have come now, are hopless when it comes to even getting FDI's. Look what have they at the end of 90's. Firstly the already established textile industry has seen record growths: Pakistan Economy Heads for Higher Growth in 2004 and 2005 - ADB.org Pakistan Books 26.5% Textiles Export Growth Despite Challenges - Yahoo!7 News 1.Telecom: complete credit to Musharraf and his government. 2.Cement:expansion could also have taken place before, but it didnt. 3.Steel Mills 4.Marble: The Exports in the marble industry of Pakistan have shown upward trends as it has reached to US $ 18 million in the dimensional stone and its products 12 percent growth, Pakistan is exporting its marble products to Middle East, USA, China, Italy, UK, and Germany. Pakistan News Service - PakTribune PAKISTAN'S MARBLE EXPORTS RISE 12% TO REACH US$18 MLN. Industry & Business Article - Research, News, Information, Contacts, Divisions, Subsidiaries, Business Associations 5.Sugar Production: During the latest 2003-04 (2002-03) season, national sugar industry rolled out a record sugar output at 3.997 (3.662) million tons, up 9.14 per cent, by higher efficiency as can be seen from processing of 43.468 (41.911) million tons of sugarcane, up 3.71 per cent and achieving an average sugar recovery improved to 9.19 (8.74) per cent. http://www.pakissan.com/english/issu...larified.shtml 6.Major reserves of copper and gold in Balochistan's Rekodiq area have been discovered in early 2006. The Rekodiq mining area has proven estimated reserves of 2 billion tons of copper and 20 million ounces of gold. According to the current market price, the value of the deposits has been estimated at about $65 billion, which would generate thousands of jobs. The discovery has ranked Rekodiq among the world's top seven copper reserves. The Rekodiq project is estimated to produce 200,000 tons of copper and 400,000 ounces of gold per year, at an estimated value of $1.25 billion at current market prices. The copper and gold are currently traded at about $5,000 per ton and $600 per ounce respectively in the international market. Yeh discovery bhi "luck" thi, hain na? In recent years, the country has seen rapid growth in industries (such as apparel, textiles, and cement) and services (such as telecommunications, transportation, advertising, and finance). Pakistan ranks forty-first in the world and fifty-fifth worldwide in factory output. Pakistan's industrial sector accounts for about 24% of GDP. The government is privatizing large-scale parastatal units, and the public sector accounts for a shrinking proportion of industrial output, while growth in overall industrial output (including the private sector) has accelerated. Government policies aim to diversify the country's industrial base and bolster export industries. This is the trend of industry to GDP percentage: 2001-02 02-03 03-04 04-05 0.61 1.08 2.74 2.74 Manufacturing: 1.71 1.11 2.31 2.19 Taxing the rich has been much better that what it was in the 90's, espcially the tax collected was not going in stomachs. Btw Download the PDF file and read it. Pakistan - Poverty Alleviation Fund Project, Vol. 1 of 1
__________________
The first witness is thine own consciousness ‐ See thyself, then, with thine own light
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#40
31-05-08, 09:23 PM
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Awesome dude you are not alone fella, i share the same opinion in fact it's identical to my views on Pakistani Politics  Mushraff is the worse among 'worst' choices today we have!!!! I am not a big fan of him, but he is way better than these idiots politicians!!!
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